What's a conservative?

[Anubis]

I just arrived here; most of you will recognize me from DC.

I checked the FAQs, didn't see anything about the official definition of "conservative" as used in this forum, so what's your idea?

Here's one definition I found, with which I disagree on many fundamental points: http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

[Bumper]

Welcome to the forum! The definition is, most certainly, not anything defined in (or at) Berkeley.....

[Nelson Muntz]

Hey Anubis. See you got my PM :hand50:. Glad to see you here. And as the big Bumper indicates, if it came from Berserkeley I wouldn't trust it.

Couldn't define conservative for you though. It seems to have been bastardized over time. Some of the things conservatives used to believe in were small government, fiscal responsibility, ethical standards, personal responsibility, individual freedoms, rule of law, etc. I don't know what they believe in now, only what I do.

:elefant: :usa: :usaribbon: :usflag:

[Bumper]

Here's a pretty good one from Right Wing News (http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2008/06/definition_of_a_conservative.php)

Definition of a Conservative

We have all heard the comments about the Republican Party lacking a brand and direction, while Conservative debate over what Conservatives are the movements leaders and strongest candidates.

As many Conservatives around the Country try to answer questions about what it means to be a Conservative, an equal number are also asking that question.

Enter Lyn Nofgizer, who passed away in 2006. Nofgizer, who was with Reagan since his days as Governor in California and also ran political campaigns for Pat Buchanan and Steve Forbes, penned a very descriptive and enlightening definition of "What is a Conservative":


"Allowing for differences I would define a conservative, first as one who believes in the Constitution as it is written. That takes care of free speech, freedom of religion, the right to petition the government, the right to keep and bear arms and, in the words of William O. Douglas in one of his saner moments, 'the right to be let alone.'

"Second, a conservative believes in small, limited government at every level. Along with this he believes strongly in individual responsibility. That is, a person or a family should take care of itself and turn for help to government only when all other means have been exhausted. It also means that society, before government, has a duty to take care of its own. Government should be a resource of last resort.

"Third, a conservative believes taxes should be levied for the purpose of financing the limited responsibilities of government such as providing for the common defense, catching and incarcerating criminals, minting money and filling potholes. Taxes should not be levied for the purpose of redistributing wealth.

"That's about it.

"I know there are those who say a conservative should be pro-life, which I am, but I'm not sure a person has to be that to qualify as a conservative. Nor am I sure that a person must be opposed to pornography, which I am. In both cases there are questions of individual rights and responsibilities which are arguable.

"One other thing I think a conservative believes is that the parents, not government, are and should be responsible for the upbringing and behavior of their children." {Source: Muth's Truths}

I am sure that this definition will raise some questions, especially in regards to the Pro-life paragraph. But Nofgizer raises a good question about if this one issue defines if a person is a Conservative or not.

One need not look further then to 2 Congressman in New Jersey, a Senator in PA and a Senator in Nevada. All 4 are Pro-Life; 2 are Republican and 2 are Democrat.

None are Conservative.

Yet there are many candidates and elected officials that are called "Pro-choice", i.e. Pro-life except in the case of incest, rape or to save the life of the mother, that ARE Conservative in every other area.

Putting the Pro-life issue aside for the moment, the rest of his definition across the board is totally dead on and should be used as a template for a platform of Conservative principle's for people to read and agree to.

But what about the Pro-life issue and the point Lyn makes? I certainly reject anyone who supports abortion on demand, taxpayer funded abortions, partial-birth abortion and abortions at any time during the pregnancy for any reason, as being a Conservative, or even a Republican for that matter.

I think the problem is that some Pro-life politicians are being called Conservatives when they aren't, and getting a pass because of it. When it comes down to it, Nofziger's definition of a Conservative is a great tool to use as a check list to gauge someone's positions, but at the end of the day, the voter will vote for who represents their beliefs the best.

For the one-issue voter, whether it's the life issue, or immigration, or gay-marriage even, that ONE issue will determine which way there vote will go.

This certainly needs to be addressed further, as other issues come and go, or go hot and cold depending on the year, the life issue is always at the forefront. Nofziger seems to be suggesting that the Conservative movement can include people who are pro-choice. I'm not so sure that is going to fly though, HOWEVER, the movement does include Pro-lifer's who get the Conservative label, but are not Conservative on any or many other issues.

Why the exception, and is it fair? Do you think that one of the problems is that to many Pro-life office holders diluted the Conservative movement by being a RINO and voting like one on to many other issues, while Pro-choice Conservatives have been shut out of even serving in office, giving way to a Pro-Choice liberal Democrat or in the rare case, a Pro-Life liberal Democrat?

Is there such a thing as a Pro-choice Conservative and if so, is that going to be acceptable?

Are there to many Pro-life elected officials now in office that get branded as a Conservative, but vote like RINO, hurting the overall Conservative movement?

It looks like I have the questions, but I sure don't have the answers. Do you?

[Paco]

I am afraid that the term "Conservative" has been done away with and replaced with "fiscal conservative" and "social conservative", at least at the level of any office.

I happen to know plenty of people who exhibit both ideals, but none of them are running nor could they be elected as they are too set in their ways; much like I am.

I think at the level of office holding conservative these ideals have given way to job security and looking to the next election. Very few people will stand up today and either live this out or even say what they feel for fear of not being re-elected. This is a sad observation I have made as I have gotten more involved with politics and watching what is actually going on in the World around me.

A fiscal conservative can be summed up in several ideals:
1. Smaller government - saves taxpayer money by not wasting it on ever living programs.
2. Less taxes - Use what they have effectively and they won't need to take more from us.
3. Cut ineffective or out of date programs - See #2.
4. Make it so people have to get off their butts and work for it if they are able to.

A social conservative can be summed up in a short list as well:
1. Protect innocent life - Can't describe this much more without breaking the rules.
2. Protect the family - Can you say Prop. 8?
3. Protect freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.
4. Advocate the teaching of all views of creation, not limit that education to a single theory.
5. Teach all aspects of protection against negative aspects of life - Self defense, proper sexual protection (after parent's approval) as well as abstinence.

I know there are more, but I have only had a double espresso and can't think straight until I have more caffeine in me.

[Nelson Muntz]

Ok Bumper. You brought up the A word (:censored:) and I'd like to throw my confused feelings into it. I pretty much think I'm hardcore conservative, and I'm not sure I can communicate this the way I mean it but I'll give it a shot.

Pro Life, human life is precious and should never be aborted.
Pro Choice, an individual decision belongs to the individual and their maker and is not the province of the government of men.

I used to be adamantly Pro Choice as I felt this personal decision warranted keeping government's nose out of the womb. As I get older I'm now sitting in the middle between the two. Not fully Pro Life yet. Here's why:

I totally object to women using abortion as BIRTH CONTROL. Irresponsible, immoral and shameful. However, I am totally sympathetic to specific instances where the legal ability to obtain an abortion would be a blessing in the life of a woman. We know the standard examples given of rape, incest, life of the mother. I whole heartily agree with those situations being appropriate. I don't know, and I don't think anyone but God knows, but there may be other legitimate, moral, ethical, legal reasons why it should be available.

Thing is, Pro Life is an absolute. Choice is not. In the event of rape, incest, danger to the life of the mother it is not an absolute that the mother will choose to abort. Or that they will. One size does not fit all, and it is neither my business nor government's business to shoehorn an absolute such as that on anyone. And for that reason I would prefer choice.

Can I still consider myself a conservative? Or am I just a knucklehead?

Excuse me while I get down off this :soapbox:

Oh, and Anubis: sorry I :hijacked: your welcome thread.

[Anubis]

Oh, and Anubis: sorry I :hijacked: your welcome thread.

No problem, after all I injected the conservative theme; let's face it, a plain vanilla welcome thread can be very boring and repetitious.

Bumper, I like Lyn Nofziger's ideas you quoted. I am an anarchist at heart, but with slight modification to Nofziger, I can accept these statements as rational:

1. The Constitution is the best instrument of government yet written.

2. Government should be as minimal and unintrusive as possible.

3. Taxation should be as minimal as possible to keep the fundamental operations of government running.

(Had to remove "believe" because I have no beliefs and strive to avoid using the word. Being rational, I either know something to be a fact or I don't know it. For me, belief is either letting someone else do my thinking ["Yes we can"] or wishing something were a fact.)

One thing about the liberal-conservative axis I find weird is the view of individual rights, such as gun ownership. To me, thinking "I should have this right, and therefore everyone else should too" seems to be a liberal idea, but its supporters are labeled conservative.

[Bumper]

Ok Bumper. You brought up the A word (:censored:) and I'd like to throw my confused feelings into it. I pretty much think I'm hardcore conservative, and I'm not sure I can communicate this the way I mean it but I'll give it a shot.

Remember, I didn't write that. That was one of the better definitions I could find on short notice.... :wink:

I, like you am against abortion as birth control, of course, but I am also against it as a solution to someone's stupidity. Today, everyone should know about "the pill", condoms and other methods. If they are so ignorant that despite this knowledge they still get pregnant (or get someone pregnant) ethically, I think it is wrong for them to abort a baby. Notice I said, ethically. If they want to do it, go for it. They are the one that will have to live with it when (and if) they ever mature enough to think about the life they took. As a Christian, I have to say that they will also be the one answering to God.

All that being said, I don't believe that abortion should be "pushed" as it is today, by Planned Parenthood. I also don't believe that kids (minors) should be able to have an abortion without the consent of their parents; to think otherwise is about the most ridiculous thing I can think of.

In the case of rape, incest or if the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother, I believe it is a personal choice that is ethically sound, at least in my opinion. "Partial birth abortion" should never be allowed to happen. Never.


Can I still consider myself a conservative? Or am I just a knucklehead?

I think so... :yup:

[Nelson Muntz]

I think so... :yup:

Hmmm.... I see you left it open either way. LOL
:usflag: :whacko:

[Bumper]

Hmmm.... I see you left it open either way. LOL
:usflag: :whacko:

LOL, I meant a conservative. Sorry, I haven't slept in over 24 hours....:sleepy:

[farronwolf]

This is going to be long I suspect.

So far in this thread there has been addressed the issues of moral conservatives, and political conservatives, but what about personal conservatives?

If you look at the word conservative, it is derived from the word convserve, which basically means not to waste things.

So if a conservative is a true conservative, they should want a small goverment, not many restrictions on the populace etc, they should be against immoral behavior and such, but they should also not be wasteful.

Does that not mean that they should not drive a car that is more than the transportation needed to move their family, does that not mean they should have a house that is adequate enough to keep the family dry, warm and sheltered from the elements, but not extravagent? Purchases should be made based on need instead of wants, decisions should be made based on the lowest possible risk, instead of thinking of the greatest possible gain.

Just for background, I am the youngest of 11 children born to parents who now are in their early 80's after being married for 61 years. They are conservative, probably some of the most conservative people I know. If we didn't need it, it wasn't purchased. If it wasn't on sale, it wasn't purchased. Cars were driven till the wheels fell off, then they were put back on and driven some more. The church always got money monthly, and all bills were paid on time. You were responsible for what you did, said and thought. Yes, they grew up in the depression. Dad worked on farms during the summers because his mother could not afford to feed them after his dad died in a mill accident when he was 4 or 5. They worked for everything that they have, and are fairly comfortable in their retirement, but have never expected or asked anyone for anything that I know of.

No, I am not as conservative as they are. I have more stuff than I need, my son has stuff that he doesn't need, simply because I wasn't able to have it when I was growing up. Well that is what my wife says about it. But I am conservative based on my generation, the 40 somethings, whom I grew up with. I paid for every dime of my college education, well me and the GI bill. We are set to have everything we own paid for in about 4.5 years. Drive cars that are 22, 20, 14, and 7 years old. Yea we have too many vehicles. Still have 3 wheelers that are 26, and 23 years old, but hey they still run good so why get rid of them. Have been married for 16 years and together for 20 years now, and very seldom seriously considered killing each other or divorce or separation. No, neither of us voted for Obama, but then again, I have never voted for a president who won office. I am from Texas, and I saw what Bush did with our state and could not put that on the rest of the country. Yes, there is a vote for Perot, and once when I choose not to vote at all because of the candidates.

Ok, enough of that. But really what is a conservative. Do we look at the entire package of the individual. Their personal life, their moral decisions, the fiscal outlook on a federal/state and personal level? Whether they have been true to their family and friends, what?

The way I look at things, there are very few true conservatives alive. If you pick one specific aspect, government, fiscal, moral or personal, you might get some folks that you can include in the group. But if you look at the whole package, there really aren't many at all still out there.

In my mind, crazy as it may seem, the reason everyone who claims to be conservative is so pissed off about the direction this country is going is that we all have replaced conservatism, with me-ism, or I deserve-ism, meaning, as long as I can get it, then it is fine. If the rest of you want it, well your just being selfish, liberal, or you weren't able to screw someone out of it so you don't deserve it.

Maybe I am way off base on what a conservative is. But, I really don't see many today.

[Patti]

First of all, I'd like to welcome you to Conservative Stronghold, Anubis.

I consider myself a hard-core conservative.

Conservatism is about principal.....not politics, power, or policy.

I think this young man hits the nail on the head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vz1TVpwme0

Conservatism is:

1. Respect for the constitution

2. Respect for human life

3. Less government

4. Personal responsibility

[PointnClick]

I love that kid...